Mud Turtles

Alex Re

Hello, welcome to on wildlife. I'm your host, Alex Re. On this podcast, we bring the wild to you. We take you on a journey into the life of a different animal every week. And I guarantee you, you're gonna come out of here knowing more about your favorite animal than you did before. I hope you're ready to listen to me talk to another amazing guest today, I got to interview Dylan Jones, also known as Dylan, the biologist, who has conducted field research on this episode's animal. He's also currently getting his master's degree in evolutionary biology, focusing on middle American reptiles and amphibians. So today, we're getting down and dirty to talk about reptiles known for spending a lot of time in the water, mud turtles.

There are around 18 different species of mud turtles in the wild. And the one that Dillon is going to be specifically talking about in our interview is the white lipped mud turtle, because that's the species that he conducted his research on. Mud turtles can be found in the Americas, with the white lipped mud turtle really only being seen in Central and South America. And Dylan did his research in Belize. And they're relatively small compared to other types of turtles. They only get to be around six inches long. The first thing that you'll notice about any turtle is their hard outer shell. And if you listen to my episode about snapping turtles, you'd know that their shell is basically fused to their spine and rib cage. This means that they can never leave their shell despite what you might see in cartoons. And there are two parts of a turtle shell, the karapiro, which is the part on the back of the turtle, and the plastron, which is the part underneath the turtle. Well, white lipped mud turtles have a really cool adaptation that's really only seen in some other species of turtles like the box turtle. They have a hinged plastron, meaning that when they pull their head and limbs inside of their shell, it acts like a door and closes, which gives them extra protection from predators. Some mud turtles have another defense mechanism besides hiding in their shell, they're able to release a really foul smelling chemical from their anal glands, similar to what a skunk is able to do. This deters predators from getting too close to them. But what do mud turtles eat? Well, it definitely depends on the species. But what I found in my research is that they're mainly omnivores, they eat both plants and animals. Some of their favorite animals to eat are insects, lizards, and even snails. And because they spent a lot of their time in the water, they're known as by modal breathers. This means that they have the ability to breathe in the air and in the water. And they do this by absorbing the oxygen that's in the water through their skin. There's still so much to talk about, but I don't want to give too much away because Dylan has a lot more awesome information for us. Stick around for our interview. Today on notable figures in science, I want to recognize Hindu Maru Ebrahim, she is not only a strong environmental activist, but she also advocates for the rights of the indigenous people of Chad, which is her home country. She realized that climate change was negatively impacting Chad and its people, which is one of the reasons why she started her environmental activism. She helped work on a 3d map of an area of Chad that many farmers rely on to survive. And she created ways to make this farming more environmentally friendly. She also helped to give the indigenous women of Chad more leadership roles and the ability to make decisions about the sustainability of their land. Not only that, but she also represented civil society in the Paris Climate agreements. She has already done so many amazing things to improve the lives of people in Chad and the world in general. And she's only 37 years old. If you want to learn more about Hindu Morrow, Ebrahim or the series in general, check out on wildlife.org

Okay, we're back. Enjoy my interview with Dylan. Dylan, how are you doing? Doing good. How about yourself? I'm doing well. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast to talk about mud turtles. I really can't wait to get started. Yeah, for sure. For sure. This was this is gonna be fun. Yeah, absolutely. First, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself and how you became interested in mud turtles and animals in general?

Dillon Jones

Yeah, so my name is Dillon. I'm a biologist. I've been involved in several projects, but they've always been related to reptiles and amphibians, and some way, I did a long term project for two different summers going out and tracking mud turtles and Billy's. But um, yeah, I got into animals when I was around 14 or 15. sort of weird because I used to be scared of all animals before that. Yeah. And then it's a very, very big flip away from that. So yeah, just just like animals a lot.

Alex Re

That's so great. That's awesome. And you were talking about your, your research in Billy's on those white lips, mud turtles? And can you just talk about what that entailed? And what you did?

Dillon Jones

Yeah, so this was a, this was a long term project that's been going on at the Toucan Ridge, ecology and education society in the Mayan mountains of Belize. So this tropical jungle. And basically, they had been tracking them already for I believe it was four years before I started tracking them. And I tracked them for two of those two extra years. Basically, we were trying to figure out, what are the movement patterns of these turtles? What are their home ranges? Is there anything that we can correlate with these home ranges and movement patterns? So things like the sex of the turtle the time of year, stuff like that?

Alex Re

That's really cool. It sounds really awesome to be going out into the, into the rain for us to do that. And how did you actually track the turtles?

Dillon Jones

Yeah, so we were doing it through radio telemetry, which is, it's, it's basically you put a little transmitter on the turtle, and it has a little has a transmitter and a wire coming off of it. And you have this large antenna that you basically point around and mess with on a radio, it's very similar to like a metal detector, but for turtles. And yeah, we were going out twice, or sometimes three times a week to try and find over. I think at one one summer, we had 12 turtles that we were tracking. So trying to find, we were hoping to find all of them at least once a week, but sometimes it's not as simple.

Alex Re

Yeah, absolutely. And even though I feel like turtles are slow, they're, they're pretty good at hiding. And so it must have been pretty hard to find. Find them if you didn't have the radio telemetry on there.

Dillon Jones

Exactly. And these guys are there. You can find them both in in water, of course, but then also terrestrially. And they have a they're called mud turtles, because they like the mud. So they have a, they have a desire or propensity to like, dig down deep into the mud sometimes that it's, it could be it could be a pain to find them.

Alex Re

Okay, cool. So they like to get get a little dirty. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So what did you find from your experiments there? Did you find anything about their movement patterns, and what that kind of showed you about the turtles?

Dillon Jones

Yeah, we found a few things, we're still we're still tracking them try and just get more and more data, and then still trying to run the proper analyses. But what just from some of the preliminary results, what we found is that there is definitely a difference between how much they move between males and females, it was very, very stark, but it's it's not, it's not extremely cut and dry. So in general, females had a very a much larger home range, but males had more movement on average. So kind of like digging deeper into the data and trying to figure out what's going on, it looks like the females will like to really stay in one spot. But then when the wet season hits, they move massive distances. And in a very short amount of time, they'll go up mountains and down rivers, to find new breeding grounds or new areas to mate or new areas to to lay their eggs. Just a side note, even though these turtles spend a lot of time in the water, their eggs are only fit for being laid on land. And this is for all turtles, which is why you see so many different types of turtles traveling really long distances to lay their eggs. So it was very interesting, where we when we made these home range polygons that are just like, Where are the species found? Where do they exist within their space, the males would usually have these like really narrow or really small little polygons, but then the females would be massive and look wild. So it was there. They're really cool turtles.

Alex Re

That's amazing. And you that just kind of shows you how animals will go to great lengths in order to reproduce and pass their genes on to the next generation. Okay. And did that research kind of give you any implications about other species? Or could that tell you a little bit about organisms that live in similar habitats?

Dillon Jones

Absolutely. So so a big reason that the station wanted to do this species in particular other than they are so we could do it is that a lot of people Previous studies that had looked at them as well as other modern musk turtles, they were really in the sort of static system. They'd be like a pond or a lake, nothing really dynamic. But we're we're where we were studying I'm where was in this mountain stream, or creek or river, whatever you want to call it have like four different names. But it was extremely dynamic. It would flood constantly, when it flooded. It was a massive flood it was, oh, gosh, it would it would always knock out our bridges. And one time I was actually there right before it flooded. So I got that before and after measurement, and it was 45 centimeters in 15 minutes. It's rapid. So it's that that that presents another challenge is trying to because we wanted to track them right after the floods, we wanted to see if they were moving with the floods or anything like that. And we don't have enough data to say for sure, but it definitely seems like the females will go with the floods, but then the males will stay put.

Alex Re

So that's really interesting. And so the obviously, there's not a whole lot of information out there on these guys. So is there anything that you learned about them? That was really cool that the average person may not know?

Dillon Jones

Yeah, there really isn't much. And that's that's kind of the interesting thing. Or if there is information, it's hidden behind a journal and behind a paywall, which makes it harder to really get that info. Yeah, um, yeah, so I know from some of the older studies that looked at them, and some of them some areas in Mexico, these guys are just super, super, super variable. So ours were about half the size of the ones found in Mexico, and their diet seems to change wildly. So some populations are very much so they really only vegetation, other populations are almost entirely carnivore, and then everything in between. So they're just these like, incredibly dynamic species, both within an area but between all their different areas. So they're just a, they're sort of a trip to study, because you're never exactly sure what you're going to get and what you're

Alex Re

going to find. Wow, that's really crazy. And what do you think can cause those drastic differences in in the different populations?

Dillon Jones

Yeah, so my guess is that they're just really great generalists. So they don't really care so much about what they're eating or how, how big they're going to get, etc. So when they just find an area, and they sort of capitalize on what's available there. So the ones that were only eating, like, I don't know, the study area of the other studies, of course, but I think the ones that were only eating, like plant material, they were probably an area just with not as much animal life or you know, they're in a really, really, really static system. That's kind of nothing but algae and plant growth growing. So there's not much invertebrates or fish to eat, basically. So it was a there's a lot of guesses. But of course, I only know what ours were, and I go on diet, but we never did a diet study with ours, because we just, it was just so difficult. We really wanted to figure out their movement patterns.

Alex Re

Yeah, I mean, it can be really hard just for that to figure that one thing out and to bring all those other aspects in it. So obviously, they live in rain forest, the area. So a lot of animals in those kinds of habitats are facing a lot of threats. So are these turtles in any danger right now?

Dillon Jones

Yeah, so it's really their biggest threat would be either poaching to a degree. This species isn't as heavily poached as some other turtle species. But all turtles are poached at some level. But really, it's habitat loss. rain forests, which

Alex Re

are one of the habitats that these turtles live in have been demolished over the past 100 years, we've lost almost half of the world's rain forests since then.

Dillon Jones

And the tricky thing, at least that we found with ours is that when you're conserving the habitat, you really have to conserve habitat in multiple areas. So like, like I mentioned with our females, they would be really in our property for most of the most of the year. But then when the wet season hits, they would go way, way, way, way, way, way downstream, we have to go into the village and hike through hike through a bunch of agricultural farms and whatnot, just trying to find them. So it's a it's a mixture of problems where even if you're not necessarily destroying the land that they are mostly found that if you're not conserving their breeding areas, it's not really doing much for them. So yeah, habitat use habitat loss is really the biggest, biggest issue facing them right now.

Alex Re

And I've noticed that reptiles and amphibians are really susceptible to changes in their environment because they rely so much on their environment to survive, for example, turtles or ectotherms, so they rely on the outside temperature to control Their own body temperature. So is there anything that we can be doing right now to help them?

Dillon Jones

Yeah, I'm always a big proponent of I mean, even just being aware of the issues helps a ton because you can, you can start to see that, oh, this habitat is being lost and what can we do to help mitigate it? Sometimes the habitat is going to be lost no matter what you do, but you can, you can still coexist with the species at some level. So with turtles, luckily, there are a lot more hearty than like frogs or salamanders, for example, but they still have major effects. So, of course, it's never throwing out trash. That's actually a big problem in water turtles, I have found like, I've actually radio tracked our turtles into a plastic bag before it was munching on a I think it was a tamale or something that found Oh, yeah, so I mean, I got it out. Luckily, it was like, Okay, good timing, I guess. But, yeah, it's really, really it's pollution. And, well, littering in that realm of pollution. But just just being aware and working on good habitat management. So if you see trash, pick it up, that that's honestly the best thing that's going to help like that an individual can do to really help the turtles.

Alex Re

Yeah, definitely. So everybody should definitely take that advice, pick up some trash if you see it on the ground. So you're also getting your master's of evolutionary biology. And so I'm also I'm a biology teacher. So I feel like there's a lot of misconceptions about what evolution is. So are there any misconceptions that you see a lot of people having about evolution that might kind of change their viewpoint about it?

Dillon Jones

There's a ton of misconceptions. And that's, that's sort of the interesting thing, because even you know, I'm, I definitely consider myself a scientist. I'm versed in the evolutionary theory, blah, blah, blah. But I'm taking a course right now on phyla, genetics and systematics phylo. Genetics is the study of the evolutionary tree of life. And most of the course, we're talking about the pitfalls of evolution and all these misconceptions. And really, I think the thing that gets the vast majority of the public is this idea of evolution as a trajectory, when it's really not, it's not this ladder thing where one species is higher than another or more evolved than another. And that's a very human centric thing we always put ourselves at the top of the phylogeny are, so we look better. And that's actually evolution is branching. It's a family tree, you know, you you aren't, your mother didn't become you split off. And so it's a very interesting that That, to me, that, to me is definitely the biggest misconception because it gets into all of these different things about humans being the center of the world, when, in reality, we're a part of it. And I think, evolution, a lot of people see it as that way. And there's so many different rabbit holes, you can go down into that like, like, there's no such thing as an ancestral species. If it's living, everything has evolved the same amount of time, we're just as evolved as a coelacanth or as the crocodiles, so it's, yeah, there's so many misconceptions.

Alex Re

Yeah, absolutely. And it's, it's about being best adapted to your environment. So we lead, for example, the mud turtles, right? The bud turtles are very well adapted to their environment, just like we are to ours. So who's to say who's more advanced than the other? Right?

Dillon Jones

Right. That's so that's actually, that's actually a little bit of a misconception. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So we talked about that really early on, and it's this, which it's like, it's such a common one because it is, Oh, it's so it gets really in depth into theory and whatnot, that species are not necessarily always the best adapted, but they're working towards being the best adapted, not not consciously, but by by virtue of something has to be less fit than something else for it to outcompete it, for example, that the idea of like perfectly adapted gets into this really interesting, almost creationism argument, which isn't necessarily backed by a lot of facts. So it's, it's like such a subtle thing that like, it's almost doesn't matter for the general public. But it's like, by like, my, my biologists side was like, kind of screaming a little bit of like, now we need to, you know, it's, it's an interesting thing, because you could talk about it forever, and talk about the theory of like, well, there's natural selection, but there's also all these other forces that are influencing them. One of them is just randomness. Like we talk about it a lot. We call it a different word. We call it drift, but in essence, it's just randomness of the world. So it's, it's so i, this is why I got into evolutionary biology, because it's just these beautiful stories. So

Alex Re

yeah, absolutely. And you know, there's it's so complex and complicated. It's hard for a lot of people to understand even myself, I It's hard to get all the facts right, which is totally fine. That's what science is just getting things wrong and then figuring out what you got wrong and fixing. I've been wrong way more than I've been right. And that's a good thing. That's a good, right? Because then you learn from it. Exactly. So, going off of this topic, so why is it so important to get that correct information out there for people to see, because you're very active on social media, and you're always talking about science and evolution, especially. So I would love to hear your insights about that.

Dillon Jones

Right, right. And that's something I've been, it's something that I think has become a lot more important. And the last five years or so it seems that misinformation has been becoming more and more prevalent, or not even like totally misinformation, just slightly wrong thinking or slightly wrong. info. And it's important to get it right or not, not even right, but as right as we can, because you know, science is a moving target, we're never 100% sure, we're just more sure than we were. It's important to us right information and try to understand things better, because it It leads to one just being a better informed citizen on on any topic. You know, it doesn't have to be just science. But it can be on just like any like, like a social issue or just understanding your local government a little bit better. Or, you know, getting back to biology, understanding why a local park needs a little bit of natural maintenance. But it has broader implications of, we should be valuing correct information, and really always searching out for the truth of it, and not just hearing what we see on social media. And I'm the first to criticize social media, even though I use it a ton. Because it's so easy just to say something slightly wrong, and it goes wild and takes over. So correct information, or as correct as we can is probably the most important thing we can do. But even then objectivity is subjective at some level. So it's, it's always a it's always fun trying to figure out what's exactly the right answer. Yeah, but some things are facts. So

Alex Re

absolutely. And I feel like it's so easy to see something on online on social media and be like, Oh, that must be true. And I'm not going to research it or back, figure out what if it's backed up by any evidence, and then I'll tell other people about it. And then they'll spread that information. That's how misinformation spreads to exactly people. So yeah, no, that's very important. So this is my last question. Where can we go to find you on social media?

Dillon Jones

Yeah, so I'm on Instagram, YouTube, and another site called mammals with z. But all of them I'm underneath the name Dylan, the biologist, so di LL. O n.

Alex Re

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on. I learned so much, and it was a pleasure having you. Yeah, for sure. This was fun. I hope you enjoyed that interview as much as I did. Dylan taught me so many things about mud turtles, research and science in general. He even addressed a misconception that I had about evolution, which was awesome. Like Dylan said, mud turtles are pretty vulnerable to changes in their environment. So here are some organizations that you should take a look at to help turtles and the environment as a whole. The turtle Conservation Fund and the turtle Conservancy specifically aimed to help and protect turtles and their habitats, while clean trails helps to organize and support trash cleanups in different ecosystems. Thank you so much for coming on this adventure with me as we explore the world of mud turtles. You can find the sources that we use for this podcast and links to organizations that we reference at on wildlife.org. You can also email us with any questions at on wildlife. dot podcast@gmail.com and you can follow us on Instagram at on underscore wildlife or on tik tok at on wildlife. Don't forget to tune in next Wednesday for another awesome episode. And that's on wildlife.

Jess Avellino

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Transcribed by https://otter.ai