Tasmanian Devils

[00:00:00] Alex Re: Hello. Welcome to On Wildlife. I'm your host, Alex Re. On this podcast, we bring the wild to you. We take you on a journey into the life of a different animal every month, and I guarantee you you're going to come out of here knowing more about your favorite animal than you did before. Today, we're talking about a really interesting animal that you can only find on one island in the entire world.

[00:00:25] And this animal looks nothing like how it's portrayed in cartoons, leading to a whole bunch of misconceptions. To talk about them, we also have a special guest, Dean Reid, who is the Operations Manager at Aussie Ark. So join me as we head to Australia to talk about Tasmanian Devils.

[00:01:02] Tasmanian Devils are endemic to an island south of Australia called Tasmania. This means that they're not found in the wild anywhere else in the world. Their fur is mostly black or brown, and they're actually the largest carnivorous marsupials in the world. They can get to be around 30 inches in length and weigh up to 20 pounds.

[00:01:26] Tasmanian devils don't have the best reputation, just look at their name. Thankfully, our special guest has worked with them hands on to tell us what they're really like. Our guest today, Dean Reed, has spent the last 11 years working with native Australian animals. But he didn't start his career this way.

[00:01:45] Let's begin the interview and hear about his journey to animal conservation. Hi Dean, how are you doing? I'm great today, thank you. Alex, how are you? I'm great. Thanks so much for coming on. I can't wait to start talking about Tasmanian devils with you.

[00:02:00] Dean Reid: Uh, it's my pleasure. They've got a nickname called a devil whisperer.

[00:02:05] Alex Re: That's awesome. Well, going into that, you've spent over a decade working with native Australian animals. So what kind of sparked your passion for wildlife and, and how did that lead you to focus primarily on Tasmanian devils?

[00:02:20] Dean Reid: It's a bit of a story. I, um, have been in customer service all my life. I'm like 55 now and I started off working in bars and clubs in Sydney and like motels and hotels and I did that up to I was about 40 and got very disparaged about, you know, working in that kind of environment and so I left that moved to the central coast from Sydney.

[00:02:39] And started volunteering at the Australian Reptile Park. The main reason I wanted to do that is my favorite, favorite animal is a koala. And you cannot hold or get near a koala unless you work in the industry. So, I started just volunteering there. And gradually I started getting paid work because I'm customer service orientated.

[00:02:57] Um, I went very quickly into doing, you know, like tours and a program called Kids to Keeper. Which is teaching young kids and they do what the, the keeper does for the day over school holidays. Then started getting casual work with the animals on the animal side of things and started getting involved with the Tasmanian devil.

[00:03:16] That was about 2009. So OzzyArk started up at 2013 and I started just, you know, it's a sister organization. The Reptile Park opened up OzzyArk. Back in the day, it used to be called actually DevilArk because we only had Tasmanian devils. And so I would go up and swap out for the guys when they went on holidays.

[00:03:35] And, you know, that's the first time I really had to deal with Tasmanian devils. I was 41 and never really knew about devils. And they're quite a curious little animal. It got me really excited and I love them. They're probably my favorite animal now as well. So then I, you know, got the opportunity to go down to Tasmania and do a course down there at a place called Trawana, where they do an, uh, devil course.

[00:03:58] So it's a two day devil course. They do one on animal husbandry and all those kinds of things. And then I also do one on breeding. So I did one, and obviously I worked up at Aussie Arc, so I had a lot of experience already when I went there. And going to Tasmania, where they come from, and just seeing that wild environment, and how Aussie Arc is set up in the Barrington Tops, which is, replicates Tasmania very well, it all sort of started coming into sync.

[00:04:22] And then I got a full time job up at Devil Arc, uh, and Uh, I was there for like five years and then I went back to the reptile park for five years to do, um, all the other animals, Australian animals. And then I'm back up here now as operations manager. So, and in that time I probably hand raised, I don't know, 30 Tasmanian devil joeys.

[00:04:40] Alex Re: Wow. Yeah. That's awesome. And that's quite a career switch that you went from customer service to working with animals. And it kind of is a great story on like, it's never too late to really follow what your passions are.

[00:04:55] Dean Reid: That's correct, like, starting from a volunteer and then becoming, you know. 14 years later, operations manager is like, it's a huge achievement, but if you've got the passion and the love and you show that you'll do anything as in, you know, like do extra hours, take that initiative, you can get places in the world.

[00:05:13] And I always thought as a young guy that I thought I'd have to have a degree to work with animals. And in Australia, it helps to have those kinds of things, but we have a thing here called TAFE, which is higher education for older people or people that can't quite get into the roles they want to. And it's called Captive Animals, Cert 3, and I did that, and basically, learning the know how.

[00:05:34] You know, you can have all these bits of paper, but it mightn't relate to the actual job in hand. You've got to have the passion for it, you've got to have The brain capacity to do all those kinds of things as well.

[00:05:45] Alex Re: Yeah, definitely. And you were talking a little bit about Aussie Arc. Can you kind of explain what that organization does?

[00:05:53] And I know you talked a little bit about your role and how has it changed over time?

[00:05:58] Dean Reid: Yeah. So Aussie Arc started off as Devil Arc in 2013. So John Weigel, who owns the Reptile Park and Tim Faulkner, who's the director. I saw the plight of the devil. The Tasmanian devil started declining in 1996 in Tasmania through a disease called devil facial tumour disease.

[00:06:17] Now it's a horrible disease that's basically passed on when they mate or they fight. If they've got a viral load in their mouth, if they've got a sore on their face. It means it's all through their body. If they have a viral load of over 12, 000 and they bite another devil in breeding, mating, and food and aggression, it can transfer that disease over to them very quickly and it takes them out within about six months.

[00:06:38] So it's a horrible disease. They get all distorted in the face, they can't drink, they can't eat, they die a slow death. And so they saw this population crashing and thought, we can do something about it. So they started breeding, like, a reptile park is a very small, it's about 10 hectares. They have an area up the back where they modified to have 23 enclosures, very small, intensive enclosures and they started helping breed Tasmanian devils up as part of the program with Tasmania and Save the Tasmanian Devil program.

[00:07:08] They got very, you know, very successful very quickly and they ended up with like 56 devils or something in a very small area and they thought we can't keep going this way. We need something in between the wild of Tasmania. And an intensive we can breed devil. So they started looking around for properties all around, um, New South Wales.

[00:07:27] They had five in that were suitable. The, a company called Alliston, which is the Packer family here in Australia. They're quite a famous family. They reached out and said, we have a lot of land up there. We have a parcel of land, 500 hectares. Would you like to come up and have a look at it? And so they did and it all worked out.

[00:07:46] They donate the land for 20 years at a time. We've got a lease on that. And we just started very small. We started enclosing 35 hectares with, uh, 10 enclosures or around about two to four hectares each. You say we've got an airlock and then all the enclosures are in that. So if a devil got out, it would still be in an airlock.

[00:08:03] We had to go by standards of DPI, which is Department of Primary Industries here in Australia. Very high standards. So, you know, the. Fence had to go 600 down with an apron on the bottom so animals can't dig out. Uh, floppy top over the top of the, um, fence and then a piece of tin either side, uh, which is about two foot so if an animal gets to a certain height they can't climb over that.

[00:08:25] Um, so very stringent, uh, guidelines. And then the enclosures are built of the same way. And so they started off with 44 founding devils from Tasmania and around Australia. And we started breeding and we, we got very successful very quickly. I think a couple of the first years we had like 40 And now we sit at around 200 devils each year, so we have 14 enclosures now.

[00:08:50] We have a 75 hectare area that we enclosed in that, uh, we can put all our old or senescent devils in, and they can live their life out there quite happily. And then we have our breeding yards, one male yard, one female yard, so if we're not breeding them, they're not producing not recommended breeding program devils.

[00:09:07] And then we have our breeding yards, which we have about six of those. So, it grew very quickly from Devil Ark in 2016, we thought we could do more. So, we changed into a charity. So, before that, Reptile Park used to fund everything. So, you know, 2 and, and, you know. So we thought how can we help propagate, you know, a better system and that was to become a charity and fundraise all our own money.

[00:09:34] And so from 2016 to now, we've grown exponentially with not just Tasmanian Devils. But, Brushtail Rock Wallabies, Eastern Quolls, Bandicoots, Potteroos, Palmer Wallabies, Potteroo, Bettongs, and also we have a section at the back of Reptile Park, because we're off grid, that has three types of turtles, three types of frog, a snake, and a A little rat called the broad toothed rat, which is not really like a rat.

[00:10:02] It's like a guinea pig, pygmy possum sort of thing.

[00:10:06] Alex Re: Now that we know about Aussie Ark, it's time to dive into the life of Tasmanian devils. What animals are they related to and what do they eat? We'll find that out and a ton more right after the break.

[00:10:30] Today, I want to give a shout out to Jordan from Jarrow, England. Jordan gave us the idea to do an episode on Tasmanian Devils. Thanks for the suggestion! If you want to make a suggestion on an episode topic, or want to reach out to us for any reason, You can send an email to onwildlife. podcast at gmail. com.

[00:10:58] Okay, now back to the episode. And can you tell us about the ancestry of Tasmanian devils? Like who are their closest relatives and do we know what their ancestors were like?

[00:11:11] Dean Reid: Yeah, so we do. They come from a family called the Dasurids. There's about 72 species here in Australia, and they range up from the, the Thylacine, which is a Tasmanian tiger.

[00:11:23] Now that's extinct, so that would have been, you know, very closely related. Then you would have the Tasmanian devil. Then you would have the spotted tailed quoll. Then you have the eastern quolls, and they all run down this, uh, lineage to very small animals. So anything that eats. Uh, meat, crickets, or you know, like dead meat, or any animal that is meat, is called uh, dasyurids.

[00:11:43] So, the eastern quolls, they eat a lot of insects, but they'll eat a bird and a snake and a lizard. Uh, all the way down to little things called fat tailed dunnarts, which are probably the size of a small mouse that live out in the desert. Uh, they store all the fat in their tail, hence the name Fat Tailed Dunna.

[00:11:59] And they're very, they're like a little devil, basically. They eat little insects and things like that. We have these things called phascogales. So they look like a possum, but are very elongated, sort of in between a possum and an eastern quoll. And they have these long bushy tails and they live up in the trees.

[00:12:16] So, when you walk around at night, you don't see them that often because they hide around the tree. They hear you coming. So, you don't get to see them. I've only seen a few in my lifetime. So, that's where they come from. They used to be on the mainland of Australia. Tasmanian devils, thylacines, around about 700 years ago.

[00:12:32] And the main reason why we think they died out on mainland Australia is because 4, 000 years ago, 10, 000 years ago, we were the last ice age, so when that melted, animals started coming over. The dingo came over about 4, 000 years ago with humans and probably out competed the devil and thylacine for food and plus human activity, which is indigenous people probably hunted those kinds of things as well.

[00:12:56] Alex Re: Yeah, absolutely. And what are some adaptations that Tasmanian devils have that help them survive in the wild?

[00:13:04] Dean Reid: So devils are, I'll just give you a rundown of their, like, anatomy, they're little stocky animals, they're about the size of a, I do have bulldogs over there, like a small dog. Males can get from 8 to 13 kilos, they've got short little stout legs, females are around about 6 to 8 kilos.

[00:13:22] The adaptations is they dig underground, they use like little burrows from old wombats or they'll dig a hole and have a den. So they live under, underground where it's a nice cool temperate. They're a scavenger. They'll eat anything and they'll try anything but their main makeup is to smell out dead meat.

[00:13:39] So we call them the vacuum cleaners of the bush. They keep our ecosystem really healthy by eating decaying dead meat. So they're geared up for that. Their nose is. super sensitive, more sensitive than a dog. They can smell meat from about two kilometers away. They have these long whiskers that stick outside their body.

[00:13:57] So they've got them on their face. above their eyebrows and under their chin, and so they can navigate at night time and feel anything. So, for instance, if you've got like ten devils feeding and a devil comes in upside and next to another one, it swings around really quickly because it can feel it. They have these massive jaws that can eat anything.

[00:14:15] So they've got the strongest bite pressure of any animal their size. Um, they can eat bone, fur,

[00:14:23] Alex Re: Wow. That is really crazy. And considering they're called Tasmanian devils, they have this reputation of, of being very fearsome. Is that true? Or is this a misconception? And are there any other misconceptions about these animals?

[00:14:39] Dean Reid: Yeah, it is a big misconception because what everyone does is. They like this, the, they like the action of the devil. So they feel when a devil is fighting or screaming or yawning where they've got the big teeth or, you know, having a tussle over me. They're not always like that. They can be like really placid animals.

[00:14:57] Like we had, we housed 10 boys in one yard and they lived together very happily. They're a solitary animal. So they don't usually have that many animals in one area, but they'll live quite happily together. And. You see them sunbathing out during the day. I can be in a yard and walk past one and one will come up and sniff my boot and walk off.

[00:15:17] So, unless you're really up in their grill by trying to grab them, of course they're going to try and defend themselves and they've got very big sharp teeth, so they do a lot of damage to humans. But, um, in the 14 years I've worked with devils, I've never been bitten.

[00:15:31] Alex Re: Yeah, and I think that that is a great way to think about how our misconceptions can kind of cause issues for for animals like this, because if we are scared of them, we think that they're mean or aggressive, then we might not, the general public might not care about their conservation as much.

[00:15:50] So I think it's really important to address those misconceptions.

[00:15:54] Dean Reid: Oh, totally true. In 2013, when we opened, we're in a rural area, so we have a lot of farmland, a lot of cattle, a lot of sheep. Uh, we did have a few farmers calling us up and saying, oh my God, there's a, I've seen a devil out on my property and it's going to eat my sheep and cattle.

[00:16:09] And we were like, actually, they haven't even arrived yet. So, there's that, you know, misconception of that they're aggressive and obviously. We just don't let devils out because they're not on mainland Australia. They're Tasmanian devils. But yeah, those kind of things. And so we actually employed a lady who lived up here to invite, and she still works with us this day, to come up to, to invite all the, um, farmers around just so they could get a look at devils.

[00:16:35] And being a community based organization, we want to be. Really open and have a community with our local landholders and things like that. So it was really nice for them to come up and have a look at the devil and sort of, you know, Quash all those misconceptions as you said.

[00:16:49] Alex Re: Yeah, that's really great. And you said that they are solitary animals How how do they communicate with each other?

[00:16:55] Are they more auditory? You said they have a really good sense of smell. Do they use olfactory cues?

[00:17:02] Dean Reid: Yeah, there's multiple ones a girl that used to work for us. Kelly, uh did her and a master's on vocalization of devils. And so in 2013, 14, when I was working there, she would come up and sit and put up all her equipment and sit there in a yard.

[00:17:19] So we learned a couple of things from that. They have around about 14 different vocalizations. Some are really low if they're in for sound and they have around about five distinctive ones. And a couple of those are they have. And that's really inquisitive. They're like, oh, hi, how are you? I'm really not, you know, you know, hey.

[00:17:38] Sort of laid back, but just as more of a vocal communication on that. They have another one that they have a jaw slap. So it's like, it means that they're a little bit nervous with the situation. Like if I go into a yard and I sort of, you know, start going towards a devil, they might do that. They have a sniff, which is, sounds like they've got COVID, but they don't.

[00:17:57] So what they're actually doing is that they're, um, they'll do it a lot when they're feeding. And basically that de escalates tension between the other devils. It's like a communication. And they also do it to clear their scent out of their nose, because that's how they, they, they perceive the world. And so they get overloaded with scent sometimes they'll sniff to clear that out so they can get more scent coming in.

[00:18:19] Alex Re: Wow, that's really interesting. And over the years, is there anything that's really surprised you about these animals?

[00:18:28] Dean Reid: Yeah, so I think things that have surprised me is like hand raising joeys. I've learnt a lot over the years. They're boisterous little animals. And so when you're, you get that bond with them, I didn't think you would ever be able to get a bond with them.

[00:18:39] I can still pick a three year old female that I hand raised. So they do go back to, as soon as you stop that interaction, they do go back to wild very quickly. But having that interaction with an animal, they're like. Closest thing would be like a little puppy dog. They run around your house, they hide under the furniture, they scurry around and steal anything that they can.

[00:18:58] So if you leave a remote or a tea towel or your jocks or socks on the floor, they will steal them and hide them. So they're little kleptos. And all devils have different personalities. I've raised some devils that I can still go up and approach and they won't attack, you know, they won't lunge forward and things like that.

[00:19:16] Things, they'll come up and you can give 'em a scratch on the back and they don't really care. But I've had some also that has never really been, you know, never really bonded to you. So that's been quite interesting. Every devil has a di different personality. Uh, you know, there's like four or five different little personalities that, that I can pick up on.

[00:19:34] Their markings is another one. Um, you can have totally black devils or you can have devils with big blazes on the back. And they have also a big blaze that goes from their shoulder under their neck. Over to the other shoulder and they come in very different, you know, you could breed two devils that have lots of color and you'll throw a black devil.

[00:19:53] But yeah, those, those kind of things and just working out what those do so that breaks up the animal in the bush and those kind of things.

[00:20:02] Alex Re: That's really interesting. And what are some of the biggest challenges that they're facing right now?

[00:20:08] Dean Reid: So the biggest challenge they're facing is the devil facial tumor disease.

[00:20:11] It just popped up out of nowhere. It came from a female devil because it had a female chromosome in it and it's wiped out. There used to be around about 450, 000 devils in Tasmania. And sort of what has happened is over our period, there's been a lot of declines. So, in the last ice age, 10, 000 years ago, Australia, you know, Tasmania was attached to Australia.

[00:20:35] Uh, animals would come freely, so a couple of little interesting things from that. The dingo only came over 4, 000 years ago, and the last ice age was 10, 000 years ago, so the dingo never got down to Tasmania. Koalas, there was never really a big land bridge that trees could grow, so koalas never got down to Tasmania.

[00:20:52] So I find those things really interesting that, that's, that's what happened. And so the devil has gone through, it's been landlocked down there for the last 10, 000 years. So it's gone through a lot of ups and downs and declines. If you can imagine, Tasmania's a pretty big place, but over 10, 000 years those genetics pools start to decline.

[00:21:11] Especially when you have a big drop in devils. So for instance, when the first settlers come here, They were able to have land, they cleared a lot of land, they killed a lot of animals. Then I think after the first world war there was a big push to get people down in Tasmania And they cleared vast land areas of lands and also killed a lot of animals off in the middle So you've got this segregation of animals on the left and right of Tasmania And it takes hundreds of years for them to cross back over and stuff like that And so the genetic pool becomes very small very quickly And then obviously now the devil faced with tumor disease.

[00:21:41] So, basically they've had some devils that have had antibodies in their body. So it shows that they've had the disease but have been able to, you know, get rid of it or their body fights it. But the disease itself mutates every couple of generations. So that devil that had it once then gets it again and can't recognize it.

[00:21:58] So what happens is when you're looking at the devil's genetics, they look like little clones of each other because it's our own bread. And so that's part of the reason why it's probably popped up. So what the program is doing is pulling devils out of all parts of Tasmania that are clean, testing, isolating, and then We're an insurance population that puts all those genetics together, um, to try and, um, fast track evolution, is what I would say.

[00:22:22] Um, but yeah, they've had a real persecution down there, unfortunately, and, um, it has led us into, you know, where we are today. But we still have them, not like the Tasmanian tiger, so we can still act, which we are, and save these guys. So, we are an insurance population. The devils don't really go back down there.

[00:22:39] If they do, we'll die out, which they only reckon there's 8, 000 left. Right now we can repopulate.

[00:22:45] Alex Re: Oh, wow. That, that is a very low number. And can you explain some of the ways that they benefit the environment that they live in?

[00:22:56] Dean Reid: Yeah. So Devils, their main one is that they keep the environment nice and healthy.

[00:23:01] Although they have this terrible facial tumor disease, they only think there's only three cancers that are known to be transmittable. They eat all the leftover carcasses. So, and they change the dynamics of the environment. So, since, uh, the devils have declined in Tassie, you know, more cats have popped up.

[00:23:19] It's changed the The brushtail, brushtail possums now come down more to the ground. So it's changing animals, you know, what they do. And also whole numbers have dropped by 50 percent in Tasmania, which might have a correlation. They're still trying to work all those things out. So they do, you know, it's like your shark on the reef.

[00:23:37] When your shark goes, your reef sort of collapses a little bit. It's the top predator there at the moment. And because it's not there, you can see the environment starting to decline a little.

[00:23:47] Alex Re: Yeah, definitely. And, and what are some ways that the average person can help Tasmanian Devils?

[00:23:53] Dean Reid: The best way is to donate to charities like AUSSIARC.

[00:23:58] So we can do, keep doing the amazing work we're doing. We're not only help Tasmanian Devils, but it would be, it would be looking at who has Tasmanian Devils. AUSSIARC is not the only place that breeds them and get on board and help and donate. We have tangible outcomes with what we do. Not only are we really good at breeding animals.

[00:24:16] But we've already sent, I think it was to 2015, I sent 22 devils back to Tasmania, 11 boys and 11 girls and they went on an island that they used to have Tasmanian devils and there was a farmer down there that has sheep. And he really pushed to have them back because he said they actually clean up all the afterbirth and sickening genetimals.

[00:24:34] And so they were put on there because the forest has peninsula. And then we went back a year later and I caught four of the females that we released and they all had joeys. So for that, it's for us, that's around. circle environment that we know that we can house devils in a small, you know, still wild genetically diverse animals that we can release back in Tasmania.

[00:24:54] Alex Re: That is really awesome. And, and you guys are doing such amazing work and I just want to thank you so much for coming on to the podcast again. I really learned a lot about Tasmanian devils and I hope that people have a newfound love for them after listening to this. I hope,

[00:25:11] Dean Reid: I hope so too. Cause as, as we talked before, they do have like this.

[00:25:14] ferocious, this ferocious idea out in the world that they're like crazy animals. Like I think in America, the Looney Tunes actually, uh, focus that, uh, devil that spins around back in the 1900s when they went to Tasmania. Uh, standards for zoos weren't that big back then, so they were kept in little boxes, and a devil running around in a circle means it's stereotypical behavior, so that's where they come from.

[00:25:39] Alex Re: That's so interesting, and that, that can really just breed into a whole array of misconceptions that can last generations, so let's, I'm hoping that we can break those, uh, misconceptions.

[00:25:52] Dean Reid: Yeah, me too. I've been doing it for the last 14 years. To see kids, we get a lot of people coming up to Aussie Arc. We do tours and things like that.

[00:25:59] And to be able to teach the new generation of young kids about devils and see them fall in love and be able to hold a little joey, you know, it just changes their conceptions.

[00:26:09] Alex Re: Yeah, that's awesome. Well, thanks again, Dean, for coming on. I really appreciate it. I want to thank Dean again for coming onto the podcast.

[00:26:18] Tasmanian devils are endangered, with only around 25, 000 of them left in the wild. So it's really important that we spread awareness about them and take action to support their conservation. Everyone should check out Aussie Ark and the amazing work they're doing. You can also support the Treadwright Foundation and the Save the Tasmanian Devil program by the Department of Natural Resources and Environment of Tasmania.

[00:26:46] Thank you so much for coming on this adventure with me as we explored the world of Tasmanian devils. You can find the sources that we use for this podcast and links to organizations that we reference at onwildlife. org. You could also email us with any questions at onwildlife. podcast at gmail. com. And you could follow us on Instagram at on underscore wildlife.

[00:27:09] Or on TikTok at on wildlife. And don't forget to tune in next month for another awesome episode. And that's On Wildlife.

[00:27:24] Jess Avellino: You've been listening to On Wildlife with Alex Re. On Wildlife provides general educational information on various topics as a public service, which should not be construed as professional, financial, real estate, tax, or legal advice. These are our personal opinions only. Please refer to our full disclaimer policy on our website for full details.